Many years! A genuinely exciting update. Since I read the oxherder I was surprised to discover that you weren’t already Orthodox insofar as your sense of the contemplative and devotional life seemed so Eastern. It’s been something of a pleasure to follow you along these past few years seeing this develop over time, although perhaps at a time where you were basically already over the cliff and into the Church.
Many years. I'm still holding out, principally because of the exalted language afforded the Mother of God in the hymnody ("you are the one mediator between God and man"; "you are the salvation of our souls/the Christian race"; "all creation trembles before you, for you can do whatsoever you will," etc.) — still unsure if this is merely the natural conclusion of the doctrine of our deification in Christ (and thus is justified the seeming arrogation of Christological attributes) or if the Eastern Church has gone off the rails.
It's always a happy thing to listen to Met. Ware; thank you!
I tend to follow Karl Rahner's thoughts where he wrote somewhere and something to the effect that one's Mariology demonstrates one's view of the incarnation and hence one's Christology. He also referred to Mary as "the most perfectly redeemed." Like many things across the theological spectrum of the Church global, the rub is how these things are appropriated and mishandled.
Sectarianism is unfortunate, but found in every Christian religion (whether in the ethnic and ritual diversity of Orthodoxy, the internal schism of the Church of the East, the ideological diversity of Catholicism, or the innumerable incarnations and inflections of Protestantism). In my sight, that's a product of us fallen humans: who am I to judge that? I've scandalized my fair share of people in my day.
As for the overreliance on the Mother of God, well, I do not know yet if their practice is overreliance or appropriate; God gives the guidiance. Regardless of the point, I am not a good Protestant: in my mind, that is principally bound up with the fundamental doctrine of justification by faith alone (and, above this, the five solas); I quite independently dissent from these!
My chrismation was one year ago at the age of 75. Like you, my journey took longer than that of many peers/friends (Frederica-Mathews green, scott cairns and others). Kallistos Ware was so useful in communicating Orthodoxy clearly and personally.
Thank you. That is helpful to some degree although the talks made me think more fundamentally about what exactly the Church "is" - as the Body of Christ. I confess I find it hard to think in exclusive terms of "Eastern Orthodoxy" being the "one" true church (rather than being more fully authentic for example) with all Catholics and Anglicans etc being entirely outside of it. But that may be my failing. 🙏
It cannot be the case that other Christians are entirely outside of the Church. Consider, for example, Assyrian and Oriental Orthodox Christians: an ecumenical council legislated that these are received by renunciation of error and confession. Thus, their confirmation/chrismation is accepted, which means the Holy Spirit is considered to be present there. Priests and bishops are accepted in their orders. So, these are in a situation little different from a Christian who has been put out from the chalice for egregious sin. While certain churches treat Catholics wrongly, they should fall into the same category (as is tacitly admitted whenever Eastern Catholics rejoin the Orthodox Church). Protestant baptism is in some cases dubious, but that at least is generally accepted.
One can say that Orthodoxy is the Church without saying the converse (that the Church is Orthodoxy); clearly, Her boundaries are more capacious than that (and, if certain teachers are to be believed, they should eventually extend to include all of Creation).
Congratulations. I am curious about how the close connection to a sort of nationalist tendency is felt? I worked in Södertälje for many years (a city overwhelmingly rich in Orthodox congregations) and it seems like that aspect is what is foundational for congregations in the way that we Protestants are denominational. Do you think that is fair to say?
I have been fascinated by Orthodoxy ever since I encountered Scott Cairns and F. Matthews Green’s writing decades ago. Discovered Elisabeth Begr Sigel’s writing while in seminary here in Stockholm.
There is no trace of nationalism in the congregation I attend (or in those in the US that I've attended in recent years). The majority of members here are Norwegian, with a few exceptions. So, it's not a problem in my experience.
Thank you. I was tired last night when I wrote and regretted this morning how I formulated myself. Maybe geopolitical bands would be better. Anyway, thank you for answering graciously.
Dear Addison, I wait for a drop on your substack and have been blessed by your insightful writing—I’ve shared many times with my grown sons—one of whom just made the move to orthodoxy as well. It was Kallistos Ware’s writing that brought me to orthodoxy in 1994 while I was in Dallas for graduate work at a catholic university. It felt like a homecoming to me. I grew up a Protestant, became catholic, and then five years later found Orthodoxy. I’ve seen these videos of Kallistos Ware’s and the talk he gave at SPU in Seattle introduced me to a new prayer life. You’re so gracious is sharing these videos and your move to orthodoxy. I look forward to all your posts! May God bless you and your family.
PS: it was your brother David whom I’ve been reading for years now who pointed me to you. I thank God for that as well.
Congratulations! Although as an Anglican, I must say we'll miss you. That said, Ware's little book, The Orthodox Way, has become a go-to reference source for me on matters of orthodoxy.
Kismet! I was just reading Ware’s intro to the Oxford Press edition on the Philokalia and marveling at my repeated skipping of it.
“St. Nikodimos was not interested in philosophical speculation, even though he sometimes quoted texts from the Greek philosophers. He was a theologian in the patristic meaning of the term—“If you pray truly, you are a theologian,” as Evagrios of Pontos (346–99) put it—but he was not a “systematic theologian” in the modern Western sense. What he sought to convey was not abstract ideas but the living experience of the Church. In his writings he is above all a master of the spiritual life.”
Kallistos Ware, “St. Nikodimos and the Philokalia,” in The Philokalia: A Classic Text of Orthodox Spirituality, ed. Brock Bingaman and Bradley Nassif (New York: Oxford University Press, 2012), 18–19.
Many years! A genuinely exciting update. Since I read the oxherder I was surprised to discover that you weren’t already Orthodox insofar as your sense of the contemplative and devotional life seemed so Eastern. It’s been something of a pleasure to follow you along these past few years seeing this develop over time, although perhaps at a time where you were basically already over the cliff and into the Church.
Thank you. Appreciated.
Axios!
Gratulerer med konfirmasjonen!
Tusen takk.
Congratulations!
(I've been attracted to orthodoxy for 43 years, on and off, more lately, and may follow in your footsteps)
I hope you will.
Many years. I'm still holding out, principally because of the exalted language afforded the Mother of God in the hymnody ("you are the one mediator between God and man"; "you are the salvation of our souls/the Christian race"; "all creation trembles before you, for you can do whatsoever you will," etc.) — still unsure if this is merely the natural conclusion of the doctrine of our deification in Christ (and thus is justified the seeming arrogation of Christological attributes) or if the Eastern Church has gone off the rails.
It's always a happy thing to listen to Met. Ware; thank you!
I tend to follow Karl Rahner's thoughts where he wrote somewhere and something to the effect that one's Mariology demonstrates one's view of the incarnation and hence one's Christology. He also referred to Mary as "the most perfectly redeemed." Like many things across the theological spectrum of the Church global, the rub is how these things are appropriated and mishandled.
The sectarianism and the overreliance on the Theotokos keeps me Protestant
Sectarianism is unfortunate, but found in every Christian religion (whether in the ethnic and ritual diversity of Orthodoxy, the internal schism of the Church of the East, the ideological diversity of Catholicism, or the innumerable incarnations and inflections of Protestantism). In my sight, that's a product of us fallen humans: who am I to judge that? I've scandalized my fair share of people in my day.
As for the overreliance on the Mother of God, well, I do not know yet if their practice is overreliance or appropriate; God gives the guidiance. Regardless of the point, I am not a good Protestant: in my mind, that is principally bound up with the fundamental doctrine of justification by faith alone (and, above this, the five solas); I quite independently dissent from these!
Anyways, God bless you.
Congrats and welcome! Having you join the church makes me feel more comfortable within it.
Appreciated. Thanks.
My chrismation was one year ago at the age of 75. Like you, my journey took longer than that of many peers/friends (Frederica-Mathews green, scott cairns and others). Kallistos Ware was so useful in communicating Orthodoxy clearly and personally.
Thank you, Addison. And congratulations…
How would you define what is the Church?
I accept the definition that the Orthodox Church teaches. This article gives a simple statement of it: https://www.christianity.com/church/denominations/what-is-the-eastern-orthodox-church-history-and-beliefs.html .
Thank you. That is helpful to some degree although the talks made me think more fundamentally about what exactly the Church "is" - as the Body of Christ. I confess I find it hard to think in exclusive terms of "Eastern Orthodoxy" being the "one" true church (rather than being more fully authentic for example) with all Catholics and Anglicans etc being entirely outside of it. But that may be my failing. 🙏
Two wonderful articles on the bounds of the Church, one by G. Florovsky and one by S. Bulgakov.
https://jbburnett.com/resources/florovsky/florovsky_limits-of-church.pdf
https://fsass.org/shop/archives/fr-sergius-bulgakovs-outlines-of-the-teaching-about-the-church/
EDIT: By a modern author, to supplement: https://arche-athanatos.com/2021/11/22/sacramental-rigourism-tradition-or-modern-phenomenon/
thank you, John. I look forward to reading these.
It cannot be the case that other Christians are entirely outside of the Church. Consider, for example, Assyrian and Oriental Orthodox Christians: an ecumenical council legislated that these are received by renunciation of error and confession. Thus, their confirmation/chrismation is accepted, which means the Holy Spirit is considered to be present there. Priests and bishops are accepted in their orders. So, these are in a situation little different from a Christian who has been put out from the chalice for egregious sin. While certain churches treat Catholics wrongly, they should fall into the same category (as is tacitly admitted whenever Eastern Catholics rejoin the Orthodox Church). Protestant baptism is in some cases dubious, but that at least is generally accepted.
One can say that Orthodoxy is the Church without saying the converse (that the Church is Orthodoxy); clearly, Her boundaries are more capacious than that (and, if certain teachers are to be believed, they should eventually extend to include all of Creation).
Congratulations. I am curious about how the close connection to a sort of nationalist tendency is felt? I worked in Södertälje for many years (a city overwhelmingly rich in Orthodox congregations) and it seems like that aspect is what is foundational for congregations in the way that we Protestants are denominational. Do you think that is fair to say?
I have been fascinated by Orthodoxy ever since I encountered Scott Cairns and F. Matthews Green’s writing decades ago. Discovered Elisabeth Begr Sigel’s writing while in seminary here in Stockholm.
There is no trace of nationalism in the congregation I attend (or in those in the US that I've attended in recent years). The majority of members here are Norwegian, with a few exceptions. So, it's not a problem in my experience.
Thank you. I was tired last night when I wrote and regretted this morning how I formulated myself. Maybe geopolitical bands would be better. Anyway, thank you for answering graciously.
Dear Addison, I wait for a drop on your substack and have been blessed by your insightful writing—I’ve shared many times with my grown sons—one of whom just made the move to orthodoxy as well. It was Kallistos Ware’s writing that brought me to orthodoxy in 1994 while I was in Dallas for graduate work at a catholic university. It felt like a homecoming to me. I grew up a Protestant, became catholic, and then five years later found Orthodoxy. I’ve seen these videos of Kallistos Ware’s and the talk he gave at SPU in Seattle introduced me to a new prayer life. You’re so gracious is sharing these videos and your move to orthodoxy. I look forward to all your posts! May God bless you and your family.
PS: it was your brother David whom I’ve been reading for years now who pointed me to you. I thank God for that as well.
Thank you.
Congratulations! Although as an Anglican, I must say we'll miss you. That said, Ware's little book, The Orthodox Way, has become a go-to reference source for me on matters of orthodoxy.
Axios! Many Years!
Ditto!!! Many years!
Kismet! I was just reading Ware’s intro to the Oxford Press edition on the Philokalia and marveling at my repeated skipping of it.
“St. Nikodimos was not interested in philosophical speculation, even though he sometimes quoted texts from the Greek philosophers. He was a theologian in the patristic meaning of the term—“If you pray truly, you are a theologian,” as Evagrios of Pontos (346–99) put it—but he was not a “systematic theologian” in the modern Western sense. What he sought to convey was not abstract ideas but the living experience of the Church. In his writings he is above all a master of the spiritual life.”
Kallistos Ware, “St. Nikodimos and the Philokalia,” in The Philokalia: A Classic Text of Orthodox Spirituality, ed. Brock Bingaman and Bradley Nassif (New York: Oxford University Press, 2012), 18–19.
and, of course: very sincere hopes for your continued birthing of christ in you and our world.