Axios, axios, axios. I hope you won't depart when, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the priest or deacon announce, "All catechumens depart." I also hope that your parish/diocese is not among the Slavic type that require a second baptism.
Eduardo is probably correct, and I thank him for this observation. The Greek Church is now opposed to rebaptism. Exceptions abound, however, Vatopedi Monastery on Agion Oros promotes rebaptism. Vatopedi's quasi-affiliated monasteries in the USA have been known to counter their Metropolitans' advice and offer to help child and adult chrismated "converts" to fly to Thessaloniki and travel south to easternmost Chalkidiki peninsula, where the autonomous Greek peninsula of Athos is located. Because only men may enter the peninsula, dissenters with the Greek Church have established an arrangement with a women's monastery close to Athos to rebaptize girls and women.
In the USA, an affiliated-monastery's hieromonk of deep faith and a few "nutty" opinions approached me to inquire whether I might like to begin these discussions with him. My Trinitarian baptism (Lutheran) was still fine by me, which was my response. I reminded the gentle monk that my baptism was also fine with his Metropolitan and mine. He was gracious to continue treating me with the same respect as when he first greeted me. After my brief visit, I chose never to return.
Your sarcasm, Eduardo, by use of the word "thanks" gave me a chuckle. But my preference is not to use sarcasm especially with Christians, for all Christians ought to repent of the scandal of schism whether they are Protestant having split from another Protestant church or from Rome, or Rome from Constantinople. The Greek Church also opposes the Old Calendarists., and such resistance infers superiority, of which no one should tolerate. Oh, the twists and turns of theologoumena and a sad history in the Church's enforcement of them.
Profoundly happy to hear this news! Of course you’ve been contemplating the Orthodox faith longer than I’ve been alive and so I say this with as much humility as possible—that there is always a joy of seeing someone, anyone, come into the fold. May you be blessed by our Lord as you journey home :)
I live in Norway. Simply put, the RCC requires adherence to dogmatic and canonical (legal) views that I cannot sign on to. There's much I love in the Western/Latin tradition (which I believe is evident in my posts), but I could not continue within that tradition without being dishonest. In Norway, the only Anglican presence is the C of E. Since it is determined on proceeding down a moral-theological path that I cannot affirm, there's no reason to continue in it. The Orthodox Church is, in my opinion, true to the apostolic faith (despite its own obvious problems) and I've also loved it for decades. The median age of the church I attend, mostly made up of Norwegian converts, is 25. Meanwhile, with the exception of the RCC, the Norwegian churches are graying and usually poorly attended. Speaks for itself.
As an Orthodox convert myself, it was the lack of pragmatism in the exercise of conversion that caused the greatest hesitation for me. Although, I did come from a Baptist (albeit, Swedish Baptist) background, which meant everything was brand new to me.
and Pageau too - as he says, 2024 is not over yet. It brings to mind Orwell’s 1984 and CS Lewis’s That Hideous Strength. I’m re-reading Huxley’s The Island, which is equally fascinating - sort of trying to thread the needle, and so far, almost succeeding. He gets so much right, but there are worms in there too. A little like Alan Watts. How clearly they all read the signs, yet it goes on anyway. Which is sort of Pageau’s point - hang on for the ride, it’s not over yet.
I will look forward so very much to your measured, gentle manner of making way through some of our challenges in our communion.
I remember bemoaning some of (my sense of ) the worst of these in distress as a young man to my spiritual father (especially issues I had then with bishops).
He- completely sympathetic with all my critique- held my shoulder and looked in my eye so tenderly,
"But Mark, it must always be this way and it always has."
Welcome, we are a mess. But we are God's mess. :)
And I will add my meager prayers for you as you approach tomorrow and throughout your catechumenate.
My entrance, was not without it's challenges I remember well!
What Joy.
-MB
(Also interested in your discernment of perennialism; it will add something to me I can feel it.)
As I've gotten further into Christian faith and trying to live a Christian life, I've noticed that I feel less compatible with the 'progressive' non-christian people in my area (Arlington, Virginia). As an example, some of the things that people are normalizing with kids has become troubling to me, especially since I now have kids of my own to worry about. Even my own extended family will sneer if I try to be overtly Christian around them. I find myself wanting to mostly just spend time with other Christians now because they seem more grounded in the "good soil" and I don't have to worry as much about the impressions they might make on me and my kids. But, another part of me feels that Christians shouldn't isolate and withdraw from the world. Do you have any advice on striking the right balance as a Christian living in this world?
I think the primary thing is to be rooted in a healthy Christian community. From that vantage one can begin to deal with the world. But finding a stable center must come first, especially if one has a family to consider.
"No matter what path you follow to reach the place of truth, the place you arrive at is the same. When people are totally committed to their religious practice, they no longer need to be chauvinistic about it. All that is necessary is to dig into that basic question, to reach that deepest essence, and humbly accept Grace. This path is not about searching for information but about reaching for those answers and knowledge that are not limited by such names as Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. When one will still need to hang on to a sect, then one has only a shadow of the real thing, a mere reflection of a religion that does not constitute a true and deep understanding of it. The true understanding takes place prior to the teaching of any religion. We must reach that place of true humanity, that place where we can truly realize that the life energy of every single person has exactly this very same root. This state of mind is beyond explanation and teaching with words and phrases. It cannot be spoken about; it can only be realized through each person’s individual experience."
If one believes, however, that the "answer" is found supremely in Christ (as I do), then one is -- by force of conviction -- obligated to say as much. There is no alternative to our "hanging on to a sect," incidentally, even the sect of "non-sect" -- which I suggest is just another illusion. We all carry with us opinions, beliefs, convictions, and experiences, and these determine our allegiances and the fellowship (a sangha or a teacher's circle, perhaps) with which we choose to associate. And, lastly, until the end of this age or of our individual lives (whichever comes first to each of us), we have no choice -- including those we deem most enlightened -- but to abide in the "shadow of the real thing." "We see through a glass darkly." I agree with the Roshi on one important point, however: we must humbly accept grace.
I wanted to comment briefly on the controversy of the depiction of the last supper in Paris because I think there is an important spiritual point lurking around in this issue of taking offence. There was a lot of outrage from Christians that this was mocking the last supper and Christ and in a sense this was true, it was. But God in Christ was mocked, derided, humiliated and put to death and Christ's response was transcendent love and forgiveness. So whenever I hear Christians expressing outrage against something that seems to deride Christianity I worry that they are viewing God as a power which needs our anxious protection, whereas God became defenceless and vulnerable to us in our full range of human wonder and horror because there is no protection for Christ, that is how deep Christ's love goes. God is not a part of some dreary, endless, factional culture war, God is transcendent love and forgiveness and God doesn't need God's hand held by us, taking offence at various trivial events and ceremonies or whatever it is. I worry that we are still often viewing God as a god to be kept safe from a nasty world.
I found out she didn't, but she did edit "Woman and Scripture" which came out a while ago and numerous other works for major houses. She brought the book home, so I thought she did it.
Axios, axios, axios. I hope you won't depart when, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the priest or deacon announce, "All catechumens depart." I also hope that your parish/diocese is not among the Slavic type that require a second baptism.
The second baptism craze began with the Greeks, mostly old calendarists, so we have much to thank them for in this regard.
Eduardo is probably correct, and I thank him for this observation. The Greek Church is now opposed to rebaptism. Exceptions abound, however, Vatopedi Monastery on Agion Oros promotes rebaptism. Vatopedi's quasi-affiliated monasteries in the USA have been known to counter their Metropolitans' advice and offer to help child and adult chrismated "converts" to fly to Thessaloniki and travel south to easternmost Chalkidiki peninsula, where the autonomous Greek peninsula of Athos is located. Because only men may enter the peninsula, dissenters with the Greek Church have established an arrangement with a women's monastery close to Athos to rebaptize girls and women.
In the USA, an affiliated-monastery's hieromonk of deep faith and a few "nutty" opinions approached me to inquire whether I might like to begin these discussions with him. My Trinitarian baptism (Lutheran) was still fine by me, which was my response. I reminded the gentle monk that my baptism was also fine with his Metropolitan and mine. He was gracious to continue treating me with the same respect as when he first greeted me. After my brief visit, I chose never to return.
Your sarcasm, Eduardo, by use of the word "thanks" gave me a chuckle. But my preference is not to use sarcasm especially with Christians, for all Christians ought to repent of the scandal of schism whether they are Protestant having split from another Protestant church or from Rome, or Rome from Constantinople. The Greek Church also opposes the Old Calendarists., and such resistance infers superiority, of which no one should tolerate. Oh, the twists and turns of theologoumena and a sad history in the Church's enforcement of them.
Not to worry. Slavic, yes, but not nutty.
Axios! Many years!
and bon voyage for tomorrow 🙏
Profoundly happy to hear this news! Of course you’ve been contemplating the Orthodox faith longer than I’ve been alive and so I say this with as much humility as possible—that there is always a joy of seeing someone, anyone, come into the fold. May you be blessed by our Lord as you journey home :)
Also, Richard Temple wrote a book https://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Origins-Christianity-Richard-Temple/dp/1852301864 that attempts to read Orthodox iconography entirely through the Perennial Philosophy. My hunch is I shall vastly prefer your own approach.
Thrilled you’re taking on the perennial philosophy. Hard to find informed critiques/appreciations. Thank you in advance.
Addison what does Eastern orthodoxy afford you that you couldn’t find in Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism? I ask cause I’m in the same situation.
I live in Norway. Simply put, the RCC requires adherence to dogmatic and canonical (legal) views that I cannot sign on to. There's much I love in the Western/Latin tradition (which I believe is evident in my posts), but I could not continue within that tradition without being dishonest. In Norway, the only Anglican presence is the C of E. Since it is determined on proceeding down a moral-theological path that I cannot affirm, there's no reason to continue in it. The Orthodox Church is, in my opinion, true to the apostolic faith (despite its own obvious problems) and I've also loved it for decades. The median age of the church I attend, mostly made up of Norwegian converts, is 25. Meanwhile, with the exception of the RCC, the Norwegian churches are graying and usually poorly attended. Speaks for itself.
Thanks Addison for the context May the Lord bless you
As an Orthodox convert myself, it was the lack of pragmatism in the exercise of conversion that caused the greatest hesitation for me. Although, I did come from a Baptist (albeit, Swedish Baptist) background, which meant everything was brand new to me.
άξιος!
Kevin Mcleod’s talk is brilliant; so much to unpack. Thank you.
and Pageau too - as he says, 2024 is not over yet. It brings to mind Orwell’s 1984 and CS Lewis’s That Hideous Strength. I’m re-reading Huxley’s The Island, which is equally fascinating - sort of trying to thread the needle, and so far, almost succeeding. He gets so much right, but there are worms in there too. A little like Alan Watts. How clearly they all read the signs, yet it goes on anyway. Which is sort of Pageau’s point - hang on for the ride, it’s not over yet.
This brings me such joy.
I will look forward so very much to your measured, gentle manner of making way through some of our challenges in our communion.
I remember bemoaning some of (my sense of ) the worst of these in distress as a young man to my spiritual father (especially issues I had then with bishops).
He- completely sympathetic with all my critique- held my shoulder and looked in my eye so tenderly,
"But Mark, it must always be this way and it always has."
Welcome, we are a mess. But we are God's mess. :)
And I will add my meager prayers for you as you approach tomorrow and throughout your catechumenate.
My entrance, was not without it's challenges I remember well!
What Joy.
-MB
(Also interested in your discernment of perennialism; it will add something to me I can feel it.)
Thank you.
As I've gotten further into Christian faith and trying to live a Christian life, I've noticed that I feel less compatible with the 'progressive' non-christian people in my area (Arlington, Virginia). As an example, some of the things that people are normalizing with kids has become troubling to me, especially since I now have kids of my own to worry about. Even my own extended family will sneer if I try to be overtly Christian around them. I find myself wanting to mostly just spend time with other Christians now because they seem more grounded in the "good soil" and I don't have to worry as much about the impressions they might make on me and my kids. But, another part of me feels that Christians shouldn't isolate and withdraw from the world. Do you have any advice on striking the right balance as a Christian living in this world?
I think the primary thing is to be rooted in a healthy Christian community. From that vantage one can begin to deal with the world. But finding a stable center must come first, especially if one has a family to consider.
“pragmatism tends to divide” or perhaps, better, to discern or discriminate
"No matter what path you follow to reach the place of truth, the place you arrive at is the same. When people are totally committed to their religious practice, they no longer need to be chauvinistic about it. All that is necessary is to dig into that basic question, to reach that deepest essence, and humbly accept Grace. This path is not about searching for information but about reaching for those answers and knowledge that are not limited by such names as Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. When one will still need to hang on to a sect, then one has only a shadow of the real thing, a mere reflection of a religion that does not constitute a true and deep understanding of it. The true understanding takes place prior to the teaching of any religion. We must reach that place of true humanity, that place where we can truly realize that the life energy of every single person has exactly this very same root. This state of mind is beyond explanation and teaching with words and phrases. It cannot be spoken about; it can only be realized through each person’s individual experience."
-Harada Shodo Roshi
If one believes, however, that the "answer" is found supremely in Christ (as I do), then one is -- by force of conviction -- obligated to say as much. There is no alternative to our "hanging on to a sect," incidentally, even the sect of "non-sect" -- which I suggest is just another illusion. We all carry with us opinions, beliefs, convictions, and experiences, and these determine our allegiances and the fellowship (a sangha or a teacher's circle, perhaps) with which we choose to associate. And, lastly, until the end of this age or of our individual lives (whichever comes first to each of us), we have no choice -- including those we deem most enlightened -- but to abide in the "shadow of the real thing." "We see through a glass darkly." I agree with the Roshi on one important point, however: we must humbly accept grace.
I agree with you, John.
I wanted to comment briefly on the controversy of the depiction of the last supper in Paris because I think there is an important spiritual point lurking around in this issue of taking offence. There was a lot of outrage from Christians that this was mocking the last supper and Christ and in a sense this was true, it was. But God in Christ was mocked, derided, humiliated and put to death and Christ's response was transcendent love and forgiveness. So whenever I hear Christians expressing outrage against something that seems to deride Christianity I worry that they are viewing God as a power which needs our anxious protection, whereas God became defenceless and vulnerable to us in our full range of human wonder and horror because there is no protection for Christ, that is how deep Christ's love goes. God is not a part of some dreary, endless, factional culture war, God is transcendent love and forgiveness and God doesn't need God's hand held by us, taking offence at various trivial events and ceremonies or whatever it is. I worry that we are still often viewing God as a god to be kept safe from a nasty world.
There is a very good biography by Robert D. Richardson on William James which I read a few years back. I think my wife edited it but I can't remember.
I've read it and have it on my shelf. Your wife is to be congratulated if she was the editor. A superb biography.
I found out she didn't, but she did edit "Woman and Scripture" which came out a while ago and numerous other works for major houses. She brought the book home, so I thought she did it.